The CW Source

This OTH vs. SPN war is starting to remind me of the BLP war...

The cheating excuses are getting pretty lame. SPN and OTH both have extremely HUGE online followings. In fact OTH just won by a landslide in some poll conducted about online fandoms (SPN wasn't even on the list). Both shows average about the same in ratings per week. Neither is better then the other. And going around saying "My show is better ten your show" is a little immature.
Also like someone else said... Who cares if your show wins or loses a sourcie, it's just a fricken sourcie. Nothing special, just something to keep fans entertained till the next season.

Horrah that Supernatural won, but am slightly confused. The category was "Words of Wisdom" correct? So...why is Gossip Girl on here? All it showed was some unknown person sending catty text messages to the student body on their graduation day. I saw no wisdom in this indiviual's words. The OTH speech was very good, but I am a hardcore SPN fan and Bobby Singer is a BAMF. So kudos to SPN. Peace, Love, and Happiness to You...Sarah

SEE, WON FAIR AND SQUARE... OTH 46% & SPN 47%
ITS PRACTICALLY 50 & 50

Wooooo!

Bobby BAMF Singer!!

♥♥

I am so tired of this fight between SPN fans and OTH fans. I personally love SPN to death, but I also watch OTH and will admit that it is a good show. But both fandoms need to get this through their head: NO ONE IS CHEATING, and no one fandom is wrong. Different opinions, different people. Yes, when it comes to voting and dedication, Supernatural tends to up the game but so what? That's not something to get pissed about. Bobby won fair and square, and Haley put up a hell of a fight. It was just how it went. So suck it up and be mature about it.

<3 SPN <3

Uh, KT? You might wanna check back on what you just said. "maybe oth viewers are more mature and don't check out these stupid polls??" If that's the case, what are you doing here commenting on a "stupid poll"?

When it's OTH in the lead, people are all "Oh, yay! OTH fans are so dedicated and wonderful! Tell everyone to vote for OTH so we can show everyone how great and awesome our amazing show is!" But when it's SPN in the lead, the line changes to "They cheated! I don't care what they say, they cheated! They're all just a bunch of freaks, living in their parents basement, and cheating. People that vote in these polls are stupid. All Supernatural people are stupid. This whole competition is stupid."

Oh, I love double standards.

KT - SPN getting a vote at the same time just means an SPN fan voted between the time you previewed and the result came up. I've voted in polls where multiple votes for multiple choices were registered along with mine.

YEAHHH! I TOTALLY AGREE WITH ANNA! FOR THE LAST TIME WE POST ALL THESE POLLS ON THE MOST POPULAR CHATTING SITES! SPN IS MORE DEDICATED THATS WHY WE GET REALLY CLOSE OR WIN! WE'RE AN ARMY!
THE KRIPKEmaniacs!

just b/c spn has more fans doesn't mean it's a better show...maybe oth viewers are more mature and don't check out these stupid polls?? besides, OTH does not cheat, i previewed the votes before i voted and saw the tally, then i voted and spn got a vote w/ my vote...this is just ridiculous!! spn fans are just poor losers...

Gandalf + Dumbledore + Complete Awesomeness - Magic + Crap Load of Knowledge + A Huge Selection of Weaponry = Bobby BAMF Singer

♥

Translation: BAMF = Bad Ass Mo Fo

Dealing with the supernatural, if anybody's got wisdom to volunteer, it's Bobby!

No shenanigans, no cheating. Just a lot of us have posted this poll onto our livejournal fanfics and onto Jim Beaver's facebook. Not to mention our own facebook, myspace and twitter. You didn't think we'd go down without a fight, did you?

Wow. Who knew that it would Bobby who would divide the Supernatural fandom in such a way? Sheesh...

Bobby FTFW, bitches.

OG how did Haley lose such a huge lead? I smell shenannigans.

Strangeworld, you and I share a brain. I agree with every word you said.

I'm starting to think that Bobby has Multiple Personality Disorder. Just 2 years ago he couldn't fathom how Dean could think so little of himself to the point that he thought his main function was to sacrifice himself for his family. Now, all Bobby can do is insult and belittle Dean and tell him his only purpose is Sam and to get back with the program. WTF?

So which is it? Either Bobby thinks that Dean's only purpose is, what he can do for his family or he believes Dean is a worthwhile individual separate from his family. Who doesn't have to constantly cater to or chase after them whenever they throw a tantrum and leave to prove himself worthy.

Bobby has shown some wisdom in the past, and is a great resource. However, he has also shown that he would not make a good leader. For example, In "Devils Trap" he argued to leave the demon inside of Meg, so she wouldn't die. A seasoned hunter should know better. Dean made the executive decision to exercise her and she thanked him for it. Since then Bobby has shown that he isn't one to make the tough choices. "Levee" being another example; his flip flop attitude in LR being another. Bobby can be wise, but he is not infallable (no one on the show is) and his preposterous speach to Dean is just further proof of that.

Haley is an awesome character who is so underrated. Come on OTH fans, don't let that grumpy beared guy beat her out for this poll.

SUPERNATURAL!♥
SUPERNATURAL!♥
SUPERNATURAL!♥
SUPERNATURAL!♥
SUPERNATURAL!♥
SUPERNATURAL!♥
SUPERNATURAL!♥
SUPERNATURAL!♥
SUPERNATURAL!♥

Bobby's words were not pearls of wisdom but a slap in the face at Dean, who sacrificed everything for his brother just to have his brother lie to him, insult him, choke him and then leave him on the ground wounded while he went after his demon girlfriend. Bobby, to have the audacity to say that Dean should go after Sam is a fool. Nothing like making Dean all about his brother again. Hey Bobby, it was attitudes like yours that caused Dean to sell his soul in the first place. Dean shouldn't be all about Sam. Heck, Sam sure didn't seem to care about Dean all season. He had his Dean replacement, her name was Ruby and she came with benefits.

Bobby's speech was horrible.

I love all these people who accuse others of being immature, yet going around calling other fans names and insult them for having different opinions. Pathetic.

OKAY I LOVVEEE Haley, but that was not a good speech and i didnt understand the rest. Bobby wow You gotta love him.MY FELLOW OTH fans are you dumb? THE POLL MANAGERS FIXED THE POLLS SO THAT NO ONE COULD CHEAT?? How is SPN cheating? I joined "addicted to supernatural" on facebook to see if there really was topics about voting and there are, theres tonnes. Thats all they ever talk about. And the application even said therare 9,888 active users so THERES YOUR ANSWER. Obviously SPN fans are more dedicated than we are. SUPERNATURAL IS GREAT COMPETION. IM A OTH FAN BUT MY VOTE GOES TO SPN!!!

For once I may be inclined to vote for One Tree Hill, but some crazy fans are just insistent on adding injury to insult.

To Pacey
You are ABSOLUTELY wrong about the cheating thing. Why can't everyone just accept that the cheating is a thing of the past? And NO, it was the OTH fanatics who cheated.

To Dustin Burleson
That just made me disrespect many people of the OTH fandom. I will admit it when Supernatural loses, but I really dislike how some people seem to just love putting down another individual's favorite show.

OTH and SN are both part of the CW lineup. there are many fans that like both shows! JUST CHOOSE THE BEST SCENE, NOT SHOW!!

2009-09-01 17:14:14 ET
I am SO glad to see that Supernatural fans are voting sensibly here. This award is not for Bobby's general track-record, guys. It's for WORDS OF WISDOM!! And his words to Dean were anything BUT!

Sam had just CHOKED Dean, after a whole season of treating him like his inferior, and after swearing allegiance to God and the angels ONLY ot save Sam - and Dean didn't have a right to be upset??? PUHLEAAAAASE!! Bobby was telling Dean to just go on sacrificing himself for Sam, to yet again put Sam before himself, and just suck it up. Forgive me, but that is NOT what family is about. It was Bobby's worst moment ever!! That it was Bobby's only mistake, doesn't matter. We're voting for THIS! Or not, because I certainly gave MY vote to OTH!!

I still stand by my vote for Haley. I love Bobby too and I really wish that they didn't damage his character the way that they have this season. Not just in "Lucifer Rising," but also in "Levee" and "Yellow Fever."

Plus I never cared for the way he screamed at the poor widow in Magnificant 7 just after her husband died. Maybe Bobby is a yeller and a bit insensitive under stress. I understand that. It's human. Doesn't mean that I have to like it or believe he is wise for doing so.

I have always felt that JB and Bobby were a real asset to the show. Now, I'm starting to see some people's POV that Bobby has turned into merely an exposition fairy and plot device. And that's a shameful way to treat such a great character and actor.

Aside from his assinine speech (in and of itself) where did Bobby get the idea that he was even in any position to lecture anyone on how to deal with Sam? In Levee Bobby was all for letting Sam out and using him as a weapon despite what it might mean for Sam. Then the very next episode he took the opposite position just so he could berate Dean. Not to mention Bobby's epic failure in keeping Sam from escaping in the first place. Instead of lecturing Sam he tried to appeal to him with kind words (which I liked) despite his atrocious behavior and then Sam knocked him out with the rifle. I felt bad for Bobby when this happend but certainly don't feel it made him an expert on the situation nor did it give him permission to go from caring words to Sam to playground insults to Dean. Bobby was not wise, caring or compassionate, instead he came off wishy washy, contradictive, hypocrytical and unsympathetic. And honestly it didn't serve his character well.

Having said that I want the writers to take better care when writing Bobby next season. Jim Beaver is Awesome and to not utilize his awesomeness with bad writing is a crime!

Calm down no one is cheating! It is a sourcie, no one is going to die if your favorite choice does not win! Get a grip people everyone is entitled to their own opinion and just because they do not agree with you it does not make them wrong. Guess what people no one is right this is an opinion poll.

You are still a fan even if you do not like Bobby or any of the characters for that matter. You do not have to agree with everything a character does to be a fan of the show.

I love Haley and think that she is the best voice of wisdom out of the choices. She is always giving words of wisdom to those around her. She is a great friend and role model

SPN fans should be thankful that not many OTH fans know about these polls. This site is hard to find. The poll was linked in a BJG fan site and that's probably the reason why a few more fans are voting.

It is not fair to discredit OTH or any other show on the CW and name SPN as the best show on the network. All of the shows have a decent fan base with extreme and obsessed fans. OTH would not have made it to 7 seasons if they did not have a loyal fan base.

I love Bobby as well because he has helped the boys out many times and has saved their lives. He is a father figure to the boys, but he has never sugar coated his words or made the boys feel better. He has always called them out on their nonsense.

WHOA! Did I read this correctly? Did I really just read a comment saying that Bobby's so-called "hissy fit" or "unfair rant" showed that he doesn't respect Dean anymore? Really, people?

Back up a minute here. Can anyone honestly say that there has never been a time when someone in your family has gotten you so angry that you had to yell at them to get their opinion across? No matter how much you love that person, there was something they were doing that was just so WRONG you had to raise your voice before they'd even listen to you?

Dean was so far in his own depressed funk after Sam left (and rightfully so), and he was all set and rearing to go and leave Sam behind. Bobby knew that wasn't the way to go about doing things, so he had to do whatever he could to bring Dean back. To knock some sense into him.

Yes, Dean friggin' KNOWS that family isn't supposed to "bake him an apple pie." Bobby KNEW that Dean knows that. He was REMINDING him.

Sheesh, guys! I know we all love Dean to death, but really? One person raises their voice to him and the whole fandom decides to tear Bobby to pieces? Chill out!

This is one of the first times that this fandom has embarrassed me. Your blind obsession with Dean has completely knocked you all off your rockers. Although, I'm more embarrassed by Wincest and Dean/Castiel. Words just can't describe...

I'm all for having your own opinion. And if you've really thought this through and looked at the situation from all angles, yet still feel Bobby was in the wrong, then fine. More power to you. But I feel that Bobby was perfectly justified in saying what he did to Dean.

And if I have to read about Bobby's "one mistake" again...

In my opinion, that was the BEST thing Bobby has ever said. And that's in a long, storied career of great Bobby-isms.

Obviously, Bobby isn't gonna win this one. Which is a shame, it really is.

Idjits.

stop talking about cheating, and everyone just be fair. I think One tree hill Haley should win this because hers is the best. :)

I just don't understand why Bobby felt the need to insult and belittle Dean. Dean respects Bobby and I thought Bobby respected Dean (at least up until Yellow Fever). Dean is not a doormat and Bobby shouldn't encourage him to be one. I just didn't find the playground insults to be all that wise or helpful.

The good news is that I don't think that Dean was buying what Bobby was selling. In fact he seemed to not let the cruel words and disrespect affect him. Afterall he's used to harsh words and complete disregard from those he cares about.

Dean was in the Angel waiting room for awhile and had a chance to cool down and that's when he reached out to Sam. It's unfortunate that the message was changed.

I thought that I was supposed to vote for the character who I felt gave the best words of wisdom? Was I wrong? I just don't feel that Bobby's unfair rant qualifies. And I'm entitled to that opinion and so are others who feel the same way. If you don't feel that way than great. I actually envy you. But don't jump all over me because you don't agree. I respect everyone's right to have their own opinion and would appreciate the same consideration.

I'm not saying Bobby hasn't been there for the boys in the past nor did I say that his hissy fit erased everything he has done. But his words were completely out of line as well as out of character and I cannot support them just because they came from "Bobby."

In "Dream a Little Dream," Dean had to snap Bobby out of his dream terror. But he didn't use cruel words, he appealed to Bobby as family and got results. There was no reason Bobby couldn't have done the same thing here. As Far as Dean being able to take it. Of course can. He's no shrinking violet. But that doesn't mean he should have to.

Nice list of Bobby's good deeds, Anna. Unfortunately, those aren't enough in the eyes of many fans. I hate to say it, but there's a large contingent of SPN fans who are extremely immature, especially where the character of Dean is concerned. Bobby loves Dean like his own son, has given sage advice on many an occasion and saved Dean's life more than once....but that isn't enough. They hate Bobby for speaking so harshly to Dean on one occasion and they'll never forgive. They think Dean is that weak, that his honor needs to be defended like a damsel in distress. When the writers penned "The Monster at the End of This Book," they weren't very far off about how a significant chunk of the fandom really behaves. It's truly embarrassing, and I'm embarrassed for them. Read Con's comment. There are plenty more where she came from. What can you expect from a mindset that writes romanticized stories of incest about the brothers? They live in a detached world that doesn't realized how sick that is.

First off no one is cheating anymore, the numbers went way down for both shows, so people they fixed it, get over it. I don't know why everyone is bashing each other’s shows, it ridiculous. They are both loved in their own way there is no need to criticize one over the other. Plus some supernatural fans comments are off with one tree hill’s activeness on these polls, just be happy a lot of oth fans have no clue about this site, note: cw source is really hard to find unless you type in the right combo for searching it on the web. An article was just published about the most active fans internet wise and oth won by a huge margin over every other show on TV . And the reason Haley is doing so well is because her most popular website linked the vote, so people who usually don't come to this site voted. Plus oth has over 100,000 fans on face book, the online community is huge, and I am not bashing SPN just giving out facts. Peace out.

It never ceases to amaze me how certain segments of SPN fandom feel entitled to tell people how they should feel about the show and its characters and try to dictate the right and wrong way to watch the show.

It's just sad that certain people can't just enjoy the show without calling others bad fans if they don't agree with their take on things. That's why this fandom is divided. If people just voted the way they wanted to instead trying to browbeat everyone some kind of stepford version of what they think the perfect fan should be, we all would be happier.

This fandom is toxic and I for no longer vote in any polls, go to message boards or LJ, and I'm a much happier fan, for it.

"Is that one mistake unforgiveable? "

Thank you, Anna (I think, the names for posts can be a little confusing!)

If you consider Bobby's words, it was one mistake over 4 years. How the hell does that erase all the help and support he has given Sam and Dean?!?

Dean started opening the locks to the Apocalypse door and Sam opened the door, but you can't forgive 2 minutes of Bobby yelling at Dean?? If thats the fan you are, well you're pathetic. Its gonna take so much more than a few harsh words to erase all the good Bobby's done. And you can be sure as hell that Bobby will be there for them in the next season to help them with the start of the Apocalypse

Without Bobby those boys would probably be dead. Seriously. Grow up. Dean has faced a lot worse than being yelled at by Bobby.

This is the freaking CW. No show is that much better then any other. Bragging on having multiple sourcies like it's the academy awards is a joke.That's like a homeless man bragging on the dollar he found. Get a clue. Funny how the vote is in favor of OTH and suddenly the cheaters are abound.If cheating was that easy OTH fans would win every catergory, which hasn't been the case.If cheating is proven to happen for the oh so proud achievement of the sourcies, well then fork over your SOURCIE wins Supernatural fans and fellow cheaters.Kthanx

Haley should win.

I had no idea that people were mad at Bobby for what he said. I, for one, was angry at Dean. I mean, he was giving up on Sam! I understand why he was feeling so discouraged and everything, but still... it's SAMMY! Bobby said what had to be said. Yeah, he was a little harsh, yadda yadda. Who gives a rip. You know if he hadn't said any of that, Dean wouldn't have been so determined to find Sam.

Give Bobby a break, guys. I love the man with all my heart. He's right up there with the Winchesters!

I love how the OTH fans are like: "Ooh! SPN's gonna lose! hahahaha!". But if you check the scoreboard, SPN still has more Sourcie wins than y'all. So, SPN is still the best show on CW.

Anyway, my vote went to Bobby. Dean needed to be shaken out of that sulking mood he was in, and his surrogate father was the best person for the job.

OMG you guys are pathetic, if your not gonna vote for a guy who's been there for the boys all their adult lives. Been a better father to them, cared for them, took them in. Loved them like his own sons, then your really no fan of the show.

Also I suspect OTH is cheating, they cheated before they will cheat again. ;) Once a cheat always a cheat!

Thank you for proving my point beautifully about Bobby Singerand Supernatural fans, Con. That's why he won't win this award. Bobby used unduly harsh words to GET DEAN ANGRY ENOUGH TO ACT. Of course they were undeserved, but Bobby was terrified and desperate to get Dean to listen before it was too late. His harsh words then were sparing Dean years of heartache later if he never tried again with Sam and never got another chance. You honestly think he wouldn't have chastised Sam if he were there? Bobby knows that Dean doesn't expect his family to bake him an apple pie. Why can Bobby not be forgiven? He's saved Dean's life how many times?

Go Haley

Bobby is now losing by 5% or over 200 votes. As a rabid Dean fans, I have to say that I just don't agree with this. Not one bit. I'm put out with him, I really don't like what he said to Dean in LR but he has also

1. Allowed the guys to stay with him while Dean rebuilt the Impala and provided room and board. And probably auto parts.

2. Came running when they called in Tall Tales, and then knew exactly what they were dealing with and how to kill it. And basically called them both morons for letting the Trickster get the better of them.

3. Came running again to help Dean find Sam in AHBL1 and stayed until they did find him.

4. Tried to support Dean in his grief after Sam's death and then grieved when he heard about the deal. Cause that is what that scene in the junkyard was - grief.

5. Fought with them in TM7 and backed them up with those other hunters didn't want them around.

6. Fixed the Colt (with Ruby's help) and then came running to help the boys in Sin City.

7. Trusted Dean while in his dream, that Dean knew what he was talking about. This episode really shows how close Dean and Bobby had become.

8. Tried to be there for Sam in MS, after Dean's last death but was pushed away by Sam.

9. Was there to help defend Dean in NRFTW and came up with the holy water in the sprinkler system. But was unable to be there for Dean at the end.

10. The second person Dean contacted after his resurrection, after Sam. And that hug between Bobby and Dean, wow, that really showed how close they were and how much they love each other. Bobby then goes off with Dean to find Sam and find out what brought Dean back, even staying with him while he summoned an entity that burned out Pam's eyes.

11. Gave the guys a place to stay, food to eat, and access to research in AYTGIMDW prior to all the hunter killings. And then was the one who found out what they were dealing with and how to rectify it.

12. Came running AGAIN in YF to save Dean.

13. Let the guys use his house and panic room in HAH.

14. Came running AGAIN when the guys were in danger in SAV and killed the siren.

15. Helped Dean try to detox Sam in WTLB, having to listen to Sam scream and yell, helping during the seizure. Then tried to stop Sam from leaving and got a rifle butt to the head for his trouble.

16. His only mistake, IMO, and one that was understandable. Yes, he said the wrong thing IMO but he did it to snap Dean out of his funk, to get Dean's attention and then, when he had his attention, he told him what a better man than John Dean was.

Is that one mistake unforgiveable? Hell, Sam started the apocalypse yet we want to forgive him. Does a few words in 4 years take away Bobby dropping everything to help the guys out and sometimes saving their asses? And Bobby has been under no obligation to do any of it except for the obligation that friendship and love of another brings. And Bobby does love this guys. A handful of words shouldn't wipe that out.

I absolutely hated Bobby's hissy fit!!! Dean is the last person who should be lectured to about what it means to be family. He has spent his enire life sacrificing for his so-called family and has recieved little to nothing in return (accept for blame, contempt, ridicule, resentment and never ending burdens).

Dean doesn't expect his family to "bake him an apple pie." He doesn't even expect them to be nice to him. What he does expect is for his remaining family (Sam) not to choose his demon groin buddy/pusher, blood drinking, demonic powers (given to him by a demon who killed his entire family), over his own brother and own moral code. Dean also expects for his brother to not try to kill him, but apparently that's just to unreasonable.

Dean already knows that family can "make you miserable." He has been walked on and used by his family for years. Bobby knows this, but yet he still throws insults at Dean and tells him it's his duty to go back for more. WTF? For someone who griped so much about John, Bobby was sure doing a great imitation of him.

I'm choosing Haley. She showed great maturity and wisdom without acting liked she knows it all. Bobby should be taking notes!

vote for oth all gossip girl and smallville people, supernatural may actually lose a category if we rally our votes together!!! because oth currently has 3% more than supernatural!!!!! :]

I voted for Bobby, but I suspect Supernatural won't win this time. I've read too many fan comments who will "never forgive" Bobby for speaking harshly to Dean. Yes, he chose terrible words but he was panic stricken and the CLOCK. WAS. TICKING. Bobby knew how stricken and heartbroken Dean would be for the rest of his life if he didn't try one more time with Sam and, God forbid, never got another chance. Yet I read some SPN fans' comments that Bobby is "dead to them" after all the wonderful things he's done for the brothers including saving their lives more than once. I won't be the least bit surprised if that petulance on the part of (some) fans gives this little award to the soapy angst of OTH. Sheesh. Can't speak harshly to Dean. He's a little woobie who can't take it apparently. How ridiculous.

No one is cheating. No one has cheated in weeks. Let it go already. Bobby is having a hard time cause some SN fans are a little miffed at him for what he said to Dean in the finale. But even if you are a little upset with Bobby, it doesn't negate him helping and rescuing the guys for years now and being there for them in a way their own father never was. So, go Bobby!!!

OTH Forever! Only SPN fans cheat!! Haha!!

Hard choice. There all pretty good.

okay first off cheating isn't possible in this poll
and secondly, yes i love SPN and that speech by bobby but haley just knows exactly what to say to pull at your heart and make you think. sure, bobby does too, but it makes me wonder if he didn't yell or anything like haley did, would the point still be made?
i love chloe but i liked haley's speech better. but what wisdom has gossip girl ever said? :\

In other site polls OTH has cheated.

Sorry Kelly!

Without a doubt, Bobby. The man is a genius. I adore him so much. During that scene, I was smiling like a fool. I literally cheered! He's such a badass. And what he said really got through to Dean! I mean, that's pretty much why he called Sam, why he didn't want to give up on him. Dean was all set to just sit back and let Sam go off on his own, but Bobby convinced him otherwise. And I loved what Bobby said about John! That's what I've been saying about him all along, and it finally was put into an actual episode!

Bobby FTW!

I'm not that big of a Bobby fan, but I LOVED how Bobby yelled at Dean at the S4 finale... but I LOVE Haley.

In the end I went with Haley though.

Okay, how is the cheating even possible here??!!! I don't watch oth, so my vote goes to Bobby.

"Because OTH has cheated in polls against Supernatural since 2005"

but didn't the soucies only begin in 2007?

i love haley in that scene, but i thought she had a more powerful performance in the one after Q's death. The SPN scene was good too, the guy that plays Bobby seems like a good actor. I don't really understand how the Gossip Girl scene was "words of wisdom"? But anyways, another tight race between OTH and SPN. I hope OTH can pull through for the win this time!

Uh that wasn't me that said that dude. I'm the one above it. =]

♥SPN♥

Kelly, do you mean every time SPN gets a vote, OTH does? Because OTH has cheated in polls against Supernatural since 2005.

If I hear the excuse of cheating one more time....ugh.

Anywho, once again Jim Beaver wins my heart in this scene. I love that man. He really knocked sense into Dean everytime he doubted himself or did something stupid. The boys without Bobby just wouldn't be the same.

♥♥

everytime oth gets a vote...SPN does too...Cheating??

I don't know why, but I always end having to choose between SN and OTH.